Curse

Quaker · Jul 24, 2010, 03:14 PM // 15:14

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Originally Posted by jazilla

Why do Nature Rituals take so long to put down? What was the original purpose of them taking so long and what would be the best way to handle them now?

My guess would be that traps were intended to be laid before a battle and have enemies lured into them. The long-ish cast time plus the "easily interrupted" keeps them from being used effectively during a battle.
The best way to handle them now would be the same as handling them before.

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Ritualist Spirits, while they serve a different purpose also outshine Nature Rituals because the way they function only serves the team controlling them. Nature Rituals affect both teams for better or worse. Do these factors make Nature Rituals obsolete?

No.

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Ask yourself a question. If you are in a pug and someone pings a few Nature Rituals and/or Traps; does he get a spot on your team? On my team? No. Even if he/she has 1 trap or 1 Nature Ritual, others on my team are going to raise objections. And they would have a valid point.

PUG-Nazis must die!
If your PUG is so bad that bringing one trap or NR will cause a problem, you need to try a different game.

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Trapping(Specifically talking about trapping for a team, NOT a gimmick). I think Trapping sounds great when you are talking about what a Ranger can do, but when you play one? Not so much. Especially now with PvE only skills such as YMLaD, FH!, Tryptophan Sig that can cause some of the same effects you would want out of a trap, but in a Shout and even an unremovable Signet form.

Trapping, as a tactic, has always been too slow for my liking, but it does work and some people like to play the game, and trap, just for fun. Remember "fun"? It used to be part of the "meta-game".

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Why have traps stayed the same?

Why not?

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Would a 1 second cast Nature Ritual or Trap be over-powered? Or would a 1 second cast Nature Ritual/Trap be more in line with today's meta-game?

Why are you always in such a hurry?

Notorious Bob · Jul 24, 2010, 05:55 PM // 17:55

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Originally Posted by Ugh

Why does everyone want a Disarm Trap skill? I don't see the appeal.

Because being able to detect & disarm PvE Enemy or Opposing Team traps rather than taking a whole heap of damage in the face would make for some interesting dynamics - rather than... "oh yeah, I'm a Ranger but I haven't got a hope in hell of finding a trap... poof! Oh yeah, there's one!"

jazilla · Jul 24, 2010, 07:37 PM // 19:37

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Originally Posted by Quaker

Trapping, as a tactic, has always been too slow for my liking, but it does work and some people like to play the game, and trap, just for fun. Remember "fun"? It used to be part of the "meta-game".

if spending all your time laying down traps that take a few seconds each is fun then I stand corrected. Just trying to expedite the process Sonny Jim.

Lanier · Jul 24, 2010, 08:33 PM // 20:33

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Originally Posted by jazilla

if spending all your time laying down traps that take a few seconds each is fun then I stand corrected. Just trying to expedite the process Sonny Jim.

Not everyone equates speed with fun.

Yelling @ Cats · Jul 24, 2010, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Not everyone equates speed with fun.

I'd guess more people equate speed to fun than people who equate slow paced sub-parness to fun.

Lanier · Jul 24, 2010, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

I'd guess more people equate speed to fun than people who equate slow paced sub-parness to fun.

You missed my point. I said not everyone equates speed to fun. I didnt say "not everyone equates going fast to fun". What I meant is that to many people, myself included, the speed, whether it be slow or fast, has no effect on fun.

Yelling @ Cats · Jul 24, 2010, 09:47 PM // 21:47

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Originally Posted by Lanier

You missed my point.

Because you didn't have one. You tried to be witty, but the entire argument failed.

Reducing casting time isn't and never was meant to just make skills more fun to use.

Yelling @ Cats · Jul 24, 2010, 09:48 PM // 21:48

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Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

Because you didn't have one. You tried to be witty, but the entire argument failed.

Reducing casting time isn't and never was meant to just make skills more fun to use.

Hint: It's to make them less terrible.

Do I necessarily agree that shorter cast time are going to make any of them mainstream PvE builds? No, of course not, but that's besides the point.

Meridon · Jul 24, 2010, 10:17 PM // 22:17

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Originally Posted by Quaker

If your PUG is so bad that bringing one trap or NR will cause a problem, you need to try a different game.

Yeah, because when a party full of bonder monks and eles, and hexing necro's and mesmers, for some mysterious reason, don't wholeheartedly agree on the concept of your Nature's Renewal affecting all of them, it's obviously their fault for sucking so much, right?

Yelling @ Cats · Jul 24, 2010, 11:06 PM // 23:06

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Originally Posted by Meridon

Yeah, because when a party full of bonder monks and eles, and hexing necro's and mesmers, for some mysterious reason, don't wholeheartedly agree on the concept of your Nature's Renewal affecting all of them, it's obviously their fault for sucking so much, right?

Pretty much yeah

Amy Awien · Jul 24, 2010, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Some NR are very effective in specific area's, some may find use in teams build around them, and some would hamper the player's team more then the mobs the're trying to fight. Very few are safe to bring -or even benificial- in any team/PuG.

Charlotte the Harlot · Jul 25, 2010, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Reducing cast time on nature rituals would go a long way. Favorable winds could be useful in both pve and pvp if it werent a 5 sec cast. Even something like muddy terrain is decently useful in some pvp but the cast time makes it too clumsy to use.

Traps should have lowered casting cost, 25e dust trap is ridiculous. Skills like trappers speed are helpful but don't really fit on a bar, helping condense the bar more by giving it 33% movement speed as well would make it of potential use. Spike and flame trap should also do more damage.

Removing the easily interruptable part would make them significantly stronger but could be bad for pvp potentially. A detect/disarm feature would never used. I mostly think traps need some number tweaking I would never expect or want them to be at the front of any metagame, but they should be usable.

To keep traps/spirits ranger only they could cast 2% faster for each point in expertise. It would make both skill types much more useful with out having to balance each one.

Mustache Mayhem · Jul 25, 2010, 12:59 AM // 00:59

I agree reducing time on the nature rituals.. cause if your doing winnow/fav winds that's 10 seconds right there- unless your 12+ in both it doesn't really last long enough imo

I was messing around with that on my necro doing winnow/fav winds and ootv.. see how much it would stack with splinter/mop on the heros for bla

it worked pretty well, could last through the first perfected jade group.. that's when I noticed the cast time really

Xiaquin · Jul 25, 2010, 01:20 AM // 01:20

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Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

Hint: It's to make them less terrible.

Do I necessarily agree that shorter cast time are going to make any of them mainstream PvE builds? No, of course not, but that's besides the point.

It worked for the ritualist spirits, and now they dominate PvE. I can't normally bring Favorable Winds when it puts me down for 5 seconds and I have to wait a minute to use it again.

Edit: Realized you were discussing traps, but, it's the same problem. Seems everyone is in a rush with PvE, and the ranger is too slow with its utilities.

jazilla · Jul 25, 2010, 01:51 AM // 01:51

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Originally Posted by Xiaquin

It worked for the ritualist spirits, and now they dominate PvE. I can't normally bring Favorable Winds when it puts me down for 5 seconds and I have to wait a minute to use it again.

Edit: Realized you were discussing traps, but, it's the same problem. Seems everyone is in a rush with PvE, and the ranger is too slow with its utilities.

You were not wrong. My topic here includes Nature Rituals. I just think that if we could put them down faster in PvE they would see more use in regular team build play. No one brings them into regular team play with the exception of a few things. With the advent of PvE only skills that do what a lot of traps were meant to do but in the form of a shout or signet, it makes using traps pointless.

I don't understand why people are against making them faster to use. It's a head scratcher to me. There is no good reason why a Nature Ritual should take 3-5 seconds to lay down when Rits have had all their Ritual casting times reduced and see widespread use. Rits are also not so overpowered that I feel the need to invite one or bring mine every time I do something. Why should Ranger spirits not see the same thing happen for them?

What I am saying is this: It won't break the game. It will just expedite the game play, and people will have more options when playing their rangers in PvE.

Carinae · Jul 25, 2010, 01:53 AM // 01:53

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Originally Posted by Ugh

And rangers do need a buff (though realistically, they probably won't ever get one). In fact, they need a buff more than any other PvE profession. The only things they're optimal in are useless in PvE....

Rangers have spike builds (that's it), which have significantly less synergy with party buffs and have significantly lower dps than melees unless you're in an area with shittons of snares and really spread-out mobs. Anyone who thinks rangers don't need a buff either doesn't play ranger or gets carried by their heroes and just thinks they're doing something effective.

I've been saying this for over a year. QFT.

Shriketalon · Jul 25, 2010, 02:46 AM // 02:46

I think the synergy comment is spot on.

The main problem with the Ranger is that they don't play well with others, nor do their skills combine together. Beast Mastery doesn't have any connection to Marksmanship, trapping requires 100% of your bar be devoted to its use and doesn't play well with anything else, and nature spirits don't offer incentive to build a strategy around them, more frequently gumming up the works than increasing capabilities and brewing up combinations.

Making the Ranger better will require making it a better contribution to the team, and offering more reward for using skills in conjunction with one another.

Ka Tet · Jul 25, 2010, 05:51 AM // 05:51

One thing I haven't seen brought up yet, but I rarely see people using this skill is triple shot. If your faction rank is even halfway decent, its a very potent skill if you buff it right.

Notorious Bob · Jul 25, 2010, 07:14 AM // 07:14

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Originally Posted by Shriketalon

The main problem with the Ranger is that they don't play well with others, nor do their skills combine together. Beast Mastery doesn't have any connection to Marksmanship, trapping requires 100% of your bar be devoted to its use and doesn't play well with anything else, and nature spirits don't offer incentive to build a strategy around them, more frequently gumming up the works than increasing capabilities and brewing up combinations.

Actually the Ranger class/sub-classes follow the generic RPG model probably better than any other GW class with the 3 skill lines defining the Archer, Trapper and Beast Master sub-classes. Some would argue that this kind of "specialisation" is what an RPG is all about.

If you choose to play a Ranger, then PLAY a Ranger. If the most effective Ranger build is 7 Rt skills and EVAS then there's something really wrong with the profession/skill balancing.

Rangers DO play well with others, how many BLA PuGs are more than happy for a splinter/barrage R/Rt to come along?

The issue with rituals & traps has always really been that they can be used for solo farming and were targetted for nerfs. However, the Dev Team supports other solo builds and that grates. Every time the Rangers community has found any innovative way to farm, the nerf bat has been swung hard and heavy

Morphy · Jul 25, 2010, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Honestly people, the pace of the game being too fast is what the problem is, not Rangers being too slow.